Beijing propping up American and European resistance for its own disparate benefit is a major factor.
However, I don't think that Beijing is the really big straw stirring this drink.
My main suspect can be alluded to with the old phrase: "Never pick a fight with someone that buys ink by the barrel."
LLM AI is believed to be a threat to the livelihoods and professions of people who have above average verbal IQs. (Or so they believe; Personally, I think the fear is way overhyped because LLM AI capabilities are themselves overhyped. But it's not what I think, it's what they fear.) And people with above average verbal IQs have the ability to agitate people to anger, rage and action with the right selection of words, language and prose, true to form.
Or, to put it another way, people with above average verbal IQs buy lots of ink.
People do not realize that data centers have been with us for decades. A prime example of this is Terremark Worldwide. I was in one of there hubs in Miami in the late 1990's. It was in a hardened building, that takes up a square block, in downtown Miami that no one paid any attention to. It was multi-story and stuffed with servers and is known as the NAP of the Americas facilitating internet traffic between the USA, South America and Europe. If you want to get rid of data centers like this, go ahead, but expect your internet connections to go dead too.
Hi, Jeffrey! I am amazed that more noise isn't made about the propaganda campaign very well financed and guided by the CCP into far left news and political organizations to campaign against data centers because they want to surpass the US in this important area. The intrusion by the CCP into all areas of our domestic life is the most dangerous threat that we face because this is one of the many areas that China tries to influence public opinion.
I am all in favor of data centers and spend a fair amount of time locally discussing the power and water issues. Power is an issue where (as in the 3 Google centers going in within 10 miles of me) your state or locale is a net importer of power and the data centers are going on the grid. Virginia Democrats rejoined the RGGI this year and is a net importer of power so everyone's costs are going up. The additional data center demand doesn't help. Water really isn't an issue but it is hard to get people to grasp that lawn irrigation and golf courses 'use' magnitudes more.
In addition, people in local politics mode (all politics are local) are extremely unhappy with the way local governments and the corporations building these data centers have handled it. The three near me were blessed under NDA between the county government and Google four years ago - we the people found out when someone saw a federal filing Google made about wetlands abatement for one of the sites. Add to this the county and Dominion Power lied to get a right of way to route a new HV line that somehow intersects the location of all 3 data centers. This is the kind of crap that angers people to get them pulled into irrational rejection of data centers. I won't be here for the next local election in 2027, but I'm betting the Board of Supervisors gets flushed.
I'll give you point 3. Jeff - I'm not viewing data centers as cancer centers any more than wind turbines are or 5G cell towers. It's not correct to simply assert 1. and 2. though. You could say data centers development in certain parts of the country and on the grid don't have to raise energy costs. You could also have a great debate about the good things that come from raising the cost of energy in different cases. Data centers don't actually all "bring their own energy" today (nor would it necessarily be great if they all did so - we do have headroom on the existing grid that can be supported with distributed energy equipment. Data centers absolutely utilize hundreds of thousands to millions of gallons of water. R&D on cooling and recycling are in progress - but by no means a solved issue in the industry.
It's not going to work to just call people stupid and say they are going to let China win. Endless conflict isn't inspiring to Americans. We are actually going to have to do the tough work with governments, public utility commissions, and utilities to continue evolving rules that make sense for economic growth of the country. In my view- the strategic vision really matters in terms where we are heading in order to drive coordination and speed. Perhaps it's because we are going through the muck of GenAI bs - but the tech leaders actually publicly speaking today aren't saying anything worth driving toward. Oh yes, please take us to the land of our kids having no jobs, damaged brains by social media and digital learning techniques...where we have to take care of them for the rest of our lives... except we too will be ground down and replaced so that the government can take care of us with universal income as we await our chances to being bred into some different kind of human perhaps? At that point, wouldn't we just as well blow up? Get it done quickly. Usually not this blunt - but leaders really need to start filling the vaccuum with accurate information, insights and wisdom about a future that seems healthy and rational on data centers and technology... for people to embrace and take forward.
Disagree. The data is on my side. Power prices don't go up. Water usage is minimal. AI isn't taking our jobs, it is creating more of them. Social media is up to the parents and if you look at Brilliant.org's KOJI, AI tutoring is amazing!
Wow Mr. Carter. I considered you a sound thinker but now you are spouting the false economics of zero opportunity cost and frictionless supply. In the Mid Atlantic, reliable power can only be sourced from transmission lines (which are over capacity) or from gas pipelines (which are over capacity). So how exactly will data centers "provide their own power" and NOT increase the costs imposed on residents?
The regional utility (PJM) failed in its most recent auction to procure electrical power for the region! The electricity simply does not exist!!!! So we have PJM using eminent domain to seize land on which to build transmission lines. The Mid Atlantic already has Appalachian ridges scarred with wind turbines and open land covered with solar panels. Now we will have hundreds of miles of farmland cut up with transmission towers. And for what? So people can have computers do their homework and create infinite songs and videos of vanishing value?
I recognize that Maryland is stupid in closing reliable power plants and this has created a power shortage which has made it necessary to import electricity from out of state. But residents of the PJM grid are wise to see a collision of interests and recognize THEY ARE THE LOSERS!!! We are paying more and our land is being destroyed and while this is happening regardless of data centers, the data center hubris is making the problem worse.
Ok the challenge is on then for you to teach me more about power pricing and markets. More content on that please and how it all works. I love your trader material too and HPA!
I'm bullish on data centers, which is why this post frustrates me. There are good arguments for building them without making stuff up.
This post is maybe 25% true, 50% misleading and 25% false.
- True: Newer closed-loop systems can recycle coolant and dramatically reduce or even eliminate water use for cooling. Technologies like WAVR are promising.
- Misleading: That's not how all data centers operate today, and saying WAVR means the problem “will be solved soon” is speculation.
- False: Data centers absolutely do use evaporative cooling, and the “two fast-food restaurants” comparison is just nonsense.
And I did enjoy the entrepreneurial-government irony of citing WAVR as the solution without mentioning that WAVR is NSF-funded. Apparently government-funded innovation is okay when it helps make the argument.
Data centers bring investment, tax revenue and infrastructure we need for AI. Great. Make that case. But you don't combat misinformation by replacing it with more misinformation.
Agree with much, disagree with much. Agree that the water problem is not that much of a problem. Losses exist, but they are not at levels that require constant refresh. The bigger issue is the chipmakers themselves. Their water usage and the degradation that comes from wafter production is immense. The amount of cleaning required is immense on their part and I think its that spillover that is hurting the data centers. Power is a much bigger problem. You site Elon. There is only 1 Elon, but there are thousands of wannabees who don't think that through. As someone who audited some of the largest data center scale Crypto miners back in the day, this is a huge issue. They are only now in the last couple of years trying to build out their power - see Hut 8, Inc. as a prime example. Applies directly to data centers too. The computation intensity of data centers is different from much of the cloud from just a few years ago and makes having their own power at scale very important. Also - having that power not tied to the grid you could say is even more important. Also - the current iteration of AI has zero reasoning power. Currently the models attempt to "predict" through tokenization. They don't reason. There is a massive difference between prediction and reasoning. Could AI in its current iteration help people to innovate. Yes, but the AI itself in its current iteration will do no real innovation. They will significantly improve in areas that benefit from prediction at scale which humans cannot do. Its why protein folding has been solved but quantizing gravity has not been.
Huang spoke about that recently, about the next big wave of growth in AI being both physical AI and the ability to reason. It will be fascinating to see what direction that goes in the next 12 to 18 months.
AI informs me that Elon Musk's data center is a nuisance. If I believe AI, the last thing anyone would want anywhere near them is an AI data center!!
"Residents near Elon Musk’s xAI data center support facility in Southaven, Mississippi—which powers the "Colossus" AI clusters—face a relentless, jet-like roar and low-frequency vibrations from dozens of trailer-mounted natural gas turbines.
The continuous noise has caused widespread sleep deprivation, headaches, and a local lawsuit alleging public nuisance.
Noise Impact and Community complains of constant Sound: Neighbors compare the noise to a low-flying jet engine or a loud hovering airplane that runs 24 hours a day.
Health Effects: Families report chronic migraines, extreme anxiety, and severe loss of sleep, with children's school performance reportedly suffering.
Vibrations: Homeowners note a near-constant physical vibration accompanying the auditory disruption"
The idea that atmospheric water generation is going to source water for evaporative coolers is insane ignorance of thermodynamics.
Otherwise mostly agree. There are extremely good reasons we need them in friendly political jurisdictions instead of China.
Why won't it work? They have it working
Thanks for this - it's a huge issue. Some infographics here: "Chairman Xi Could Pin a Medal on Kathy Hochul!"
https://directorblue.substack.com/p/chairman-xi-could-pin-a-medal-on?utm_source=publication-search
Beijing propping up American and European resistance for its own disparate benefit is a major factor.
However, I don't think that Beijing is the really big straw stirring this drink.
My main suspect can be alluded to with the old phrase: "Never pick a fight with someone that buys ink by the barrel."
LLM AI is believed to be a threat to the livelihoods and professions of people who have above average verbal IQs. (Or so they believe; Personally, I think the fear is way overhyped because LLM AI capabilities are themselves overhyped. But it's not what I think, it's what they fear.) And people with above average verbal IQs have the ability to agitate people to anger, rage and action with the right selection of words, language and prose, true to form.
Or, to put it another way, people with above average verbal IQs buy lots of ink.
People do not realize that data centers have been with us for decades. A prime example of this is Terremark Worldwide. I was in one of there hubs in Miami in the late 1990's. It was in a hardened building, that takes up a square block, in downtown Miami that no one paid any attention to. It was multi-story and stuffed with servers and is known as the NAP of the Americas facilitating internet traffic between the USA, South America and Europe. If you want to get rid of data centers like this, go ahead, but expect your internet connections to go dead too.
Hi, Jeffrey! I am amazed that more noise isn't made about the propaganda campaign very well financed and guided by the CCP into far left news and political organizations to campaign against data centers because they want to surpass the US in this important area. The intrusion by the CCP into all areas of our domestic life is the most dangerous threat that we face because this is one of the many areas that China tries to influence public opinion.
Thanks Mr Carter for your calm, fact based and logical commentary.
NV voters chose poorly.
I am all in favor of data centers and spend a fair amount of time locally discussing the power and water issues. Power is an issue where (as in the 3 Google centers going in within 10 miles of me) your state or locale is a net importer of power and the data centers are going on the grid. Virginia Democrats rejoined the RGGI this year and is a net importer of power so everyone's costs are going up. The additional data center demand doesn't help. Water really isn't an issue but it is hard to get people to grasp that lawn irrigation and golf courses 'use' magnitudes more.
In addition, people in local politics mode (all politics are local) are extremely unhappy with the way local governments and the corporations building these data centers have handled it. The three near me were blessed under NDA between the county government and Google four years ago - we the people found out when someone saw a federal filing Google made about wetlands abatement for one of the sites. Add to this the county and Dominion Power lied to get a right of way to route a new HV line that somehow intersects the location of all 3 data centers. This is the kind of crap that angers people to get them pulled into irrational rejection of data centers. I won't be here for the next local election in 2027, but I'm betting the Board of Supervisors gets flushed.
I'll give you point 3. Jeff - I'm not viewing data centers as cancer centers any more than wind turbines are or 5G cell towers. It's not correct to simply assert 1. and 2. though. You could say data centers development in certain parts of the country and on the grid don't have to raise energy costs. You could also have a great debate about the good things that come from raising the cost of energy in different cases. Data centers don't actually all "bring their own energy" today (nor would it necessarily be great if they all did so - we do have headroom on the existing grid that can be supported with distributed energy equipment. Data centers absolutely utilize hundreds of thousands to millions of gallons of water. R&D on cooling and recycling are in progress - but by no means a solved issue in the industry.
It's not going to work to just call people stupid and say they are going to let China win. Endless conflict isn't inspiring to Americans. We are actually going to have to do the tough work with governments, public utility commissions, and utilities to continue evolving rules that make sense for economic growth of the country. In my view- the strategic vision really matters in terms where we are heading in order to drive coordination and speed. Perhaps it's because we are going through the muck of GenAI bs - but the tech leaders actually publicly speaking today aren't saying anything worth driving toward. Oh yes, please take us to the land of our kids having no jobs, damaged brains by social media and digital learning techniques...where we have to take care of them for the rest of our lives... except we too will be ground down and replaced so that the government can take care of us with universal income as we await our chances to being bred into some different kind of human perhaps? At that point, wouldn't we just as well blow up? Get it done quickly. Usually not this blunt - but leaders really need to start filling the vaccuum with accurate information, insights and wisdom about a future that seems healthy and rational on data centers and technology... for people to embrace and take forward.
Disagree. The data is on my side. Power prices don't go up. Water usage is minimal. AI isn't taking our jobs, it is creating more of them. Social media is up to the parents and if you look at Brilliant.org's KOJI, AI tutoring is amazing!
Wow Mr. Carter. I considered you a sound thinker but now you are spouting the false economics of zero opportunity cost and frictionless supply. In the Mid Atlantic, reliable power can only be sourced from transmission lines (which are over capacity) or from gas pipelines (which are over capacity). So how exactly will data centers "provide their own power" and NOT increase the costs imposed on residents?
The regional utility (PJM) failed in its most recent auction to procure electrical power for the region! The electricity simply does not exist!!!! So we have PJM using eminent domain to seize land on which to build transmission lines. The Mid Atlantic already has Appalachian ridges scarred with wind turbines and open land covered with solar panels. Now we will have hundreds of miles of farmland cut up with transmission towers. And for what? So people can have computers do their homework and create infinite songs and videos of vanishing value?
I recognize that Maryland is stupid in closing reliable power plants and this has created a power shortage which has made it necessary to import electricity from out of state. But residents of the PJM grid are wise to see a collision of interests and recognize THEY ARE THE LOSERS!!! We are paying more and our land is being destroyed and while this is happening regardless of data centers, the data center hubris is making the problem worse.
Ok the challenge is on then for you to teach me more about power pricing and markets. More content on that please and how it all works. I love your trader material too and HPA!
I'm bullish on data centers, which is why this post frustrates me. There are good arguments for building them without making stuff up.
This post is maybe 25% true, 50% misleading and 25% false.
- True: Newer closed-loop systems can recycle coolant and dramatically reduce or even eliminate water use for cooling. Technologies like WAVR are promising.
- Misleading: That's not how all data centers operate today, and saying WAVR means the problem “will be solved soon” is speculation.
- False: Data centers absolutely do use evaporative cooling, and the “two fast-food restaurants” comparison is just nonsense.
And I did enjoy the entrepreneurial-government irony of citing WAVR as the solution without mentioning that WAVR is NSF-funded. Apparently government-funded innovation is okay when it helps make the argument.
Data centers bring investment, tax revenue and infrastructure we need for AI. Great. Make that case. But you don't combat misinformation by replacing it with more misinformation.
Started as NSF, but they are going for private dollars now. Older data centers might use evaporative cooling. The ones they build today do not.
Agree with much, disagree with much. Agree that the water problem is not that much of a problem. Losses exist, but they are not at levels that require constant refresh. The bigger issue is the chipmakers themselves. Their water usage and the degradation that comes from wafter production is immense. The amount of cleaning required is immense on their part and I think its that spillover that is hurting the data centers. Power is a much bigger problem. You site Elon. There is only 1 Elon, but there are thousands of wannabees who don't think that through. As someone who audited some of the largest data center scale Crypto miners back in the day, this is a huge issue. They are only now in the last couple of years trying to build out their power - see Hut 8, Inc. as a prime example. Applies directly to data centers too. The computation intensity of data centers is different from much of the cloud from just a few years ago and makes having their own power at scale very important. Also - having that power not tied to the grid you could say is even more important. Also - the current iteration of AI has zero reasoning power. Currently the models attempt to "predict" through tokenization. They don't reason. There is a massive difference between prediction and reasoning. Could AI in its current iteration help people to innovate. Yes, but the AI itself in its current iteration will do no real innovation. They will significantly improve in areas that benefit from prediction at scale which humans cannot do. Its why protein folding has been solved but quantizing gravity has not been.
Huang spoke about that recently, about the next big wave of growth in AI being both physical AI and the ability to reason. It will be fascinating to see what direction that goes in the next 12 to 18 months.
Mr. Carter,
AI informs me that Elon Musk's data center is a nuisance. If I believe AI, the last thing anyone would want anywhere near them is an AI data center!!
"Residents near Elon Musk’s xAI data center support facility in Southaven, Mississippi—which powers the "Colossus" AI clusters—face a relentless, jet-like roar and low-frequency vibrations from dozens of trailer-mounted natural gas turbines.
The continuous noise has caused widespread sleep deprivation, headaches, and a local lawsuit alleging public nuisance.
Noise Impact and Community complains of constant Sound: Neighbors compare the noise to a low-flying jet engine or a loud hovering airplane that runs 24 hours a day.
Health Effects: Families report chronic migraines, extreme anxiety, and severe loss of sleep, with children's school performance reportedly suffering.
Vibrations: Homeowners note a near-constant physical vibration accompanying the auditory disruption"