Good teachers, like good cops, are significantly underpaid for the value they bring society.
Bad teachers, like bad cops, are significantly overpaid considering the harm they do to society.
Cops and teachers represent the same problem and it is not compensation. The issue is the inability to terminate non performers and the lack of a merit based compensation system. Good teachers and cops should be rewarded with a way to make more money. Bad ones should be weeded out of the system. The solution is not to put more aggregate money into either system. The solution is to distribute the existing money better.
The biggest mistake this country made was allowing public sector unions. That was the first small step to today’s administrative monstrosity.
I agree completely with Mr. Guy' s comments. To broaden his remarks; public employee unions are the worst thing to come down the pike since . . . maybe they are the worst. All that said however, good teachers are worth anything we can pay them. Paid as other professionals who produce a valuable service that is in demand. Maybe teacher's should be paid by the success of their students over a given period of time. This would require testing however and testing is now anathema. Meritocracies are the root of all evil in today think.
I think that we all probably have noticed over the years how, as a collective, their never-ending virtue signaling about having such an important role whilst being underpaid is utterly nauseating.
Off 3 months a year, get off work at 2:00, you do the yelling. Maybe a whining parent or two but most of the time everyone kisses your holy ass.
Their response to covid showed their true colors. Not that they were not obvious prior.
Aug 13, 2023·edited Aug 13, 2023Liked by Jeffrey Carter
I won't disagree with any of the math but will disagree with a little of the logic applied in that earlier article you posted. The avg # of years that an Illinois teacher works may be 12 but they do not come close to collecting the avg pension of $42k. That avg pension is really skewed upwards by those retiring after 25+ years. Loved the idea of paying more now and going to a defined contribution plan but politicians love the current pension racket and it IS a racket. Promise the big pension to get teachers union support but don't provide all the money necessary to fund it. Get the credit but they don't have to face paying for it. That's some other guys problem years from now.
that's true. In the original blogpost, I took the average teaching career. Most teachers at that time (not sure if it's still true or not) started teaching post college and as soon as they had a baby or two, they quit.
Also the TRS Pension system is guaranteed by the State of Illinois, but the pension amount is set by a district. Thus Evanston, for example, can declare that a teacher get $100K/year pension, while only funding $40/yr. Say Effingham declares a teacher gets $40k/year, while actually funding $40k/yr, they get a $60k/yr penalty for being fiscally responsible, because the State of Illinois funds the $60k/yr difference.
The giant sucking sound of Chicago/Cook and the collar counties sticking the rest of the state with their teacher's pension bills is a primary reason that Downstaters think they are getting ripped off.
As my DeWitt County friends tell me, things are going the wrong way there as well, with pension spiking becoming common place. So rather than being responsible downstate is pushing their pensions on the state as well.
I think more spending on education is non-correlated to better educational performance. BUT, when spending is increased, it doesn't go to teachers, it goes to bureaucracy/administration. Merit based pay will attract better quality teachers
Agree with much of the below. Good teachers are very valuable and probably do not get paid enough. The trouble is there is hardly any pay differential between good, average, and bad teachers.
I notice around our district that the guild system is much of the problem. Way too many teachers are hired based on their ability to navigate the system, rather than any ability or even credential. Thus you end up with multiple family members working in the same or similar school districts.
Also you get club coaches from village X teaching at village Y and club coaches from village Y teaching at village X. School Board Member at a Junior High District with a husband teaching at the High School District. Contractor teachers working 80 hours a week so a Unionized teacher can work 20 hours a week. Lot of bad behavior develops based on gaming the rules.
All a 'who you know' system which produces some really bad results on teaching (also on coaching).
Openthebooks.com publishes a database of public employees who earn over $100,000.00 per year in salary or retirement in Illinois. I have two college friends who retired as teachers in DuPage County and both earn north of $100,000.00 per year. I don't begrudge them their pensions but if the public realized how high some of these pensions are there might well be a revolt on real estate taxes that support these salaries and pensions....and no these people were not senior managers, just teachers.
I know Adam, he does a good job with Open the Books. FWIW, I am NOT against paying teachers, nor having a pension. I am against defined BENEFIT pensions and know that higher spending on education is not correlated at all with better outcomes for kids. 401(k) type pensions, and pay them more salary is a great compromise. That will attract a different type of person to teach. There are plenty of other things we can do as well.
Interestingly, the women's movement has adversely affected teachers. In the old days, women were discriminated against and had a brutal time in the work force. Many really talented women went into teaching. Students benefited. Those same very talented women are now in the workforce. This is a feature, not a bug.
Now in my mid 60's I recall a time when defined pensions made up about 40% of your retirement income, Social Security about 30% and the rest was up to your savings plan. Pensions were never designed to entirely replace your salary while working, although that is what we all like to have. This results in two problems that I see. First if you are going to pay these pension amounts, then fund them up front(taxpayers will not be happy). Second make the pensions payments only on the base salary, not on overtime payments. Ten to 15 years back the Fort Lauderdale Sun Sentinel newspaper did a good investigative report into South Florida government pensions. The poster child for this article was, if my memory is correct, a Davie Police Department Sergeant whose base salary was about $85,000.00 a year. In his last year he worked every overtime detail he could bumping his salary to the $160,000.00 range. He retired making about $125,000.00 a year somewhere in his 50's. Needless to say the newspaper could never get a comment from this guy. A lot of government employees game the system to max out their pensions. Close this loophole and I bet it would do a lot to contain future costs.
Getting a job teaching at a public school is like winning the lottery. I’ve been trying to explain the present value and opportunity costs of their pay for people and nobody gets it.
One other underrated benefit is the opportunity to change jobs (meaning switching from one district to another while still in the same state) and still have your years of total service still add up for pension purposes. Try that in ordinary civilian life!
Good teachers, like good cops, are significantly underpaid for the value they bring society.
Bad teachers, like bad cops, are significantly overpaid considering the harm they do to society.
Cops and teachers represent the same problem and it is not compensation. The issue is the inability to terminate non performers and the lack of a merit based compensation system. Good teachers and cops should be rewarded with a way to make more money. Bad ones should be weeded out of the system. The solution is not to put more aggregate money into either system. The solution is to distribute the existing money better.
The biggest mistake this country made was allowing public sector unions. That was the first small step to today’s administrative monstrosity.
might not be the biggest, but it is in the top 10
I agree completely with Mr. Guy' s comments. To broaden his remarks; public employee unions are the worst thing to come down the pike since . . . maybe they are the worst. All that said however, good teachers are worth anything we can pay them. Paid as other professionals who produce a valuable service that is in demand. Maybe teacher's should be paid by the success of their students over a given period of time. This would require testing however and testing is now anathema. Meritocracies are the root of all evil in today think.
I think that we all probably have noticed over the years how, as a collective, their never-ending virtue signaling about having such an important role whilst being underpaid is utterly nauseating.
Off 3 months a year, get off work at 2:00, you do the yelling. Maybe a whining parent or two but most of the time everyone kisses your holy ass.
Their response to covid showed their true colors. Not that they were not obvious prior.
I won't disagree with any of the math but will disagree with a little of the logic applied in that earlier article you posted. The avg # of years that an Illinois teacher works may be 12 but they do not come close to collecting the avg pension of $42k. That avg pension is really skewed upwards by those retiring after 25+ years. Loved the idea of paying more now and going to a defined contribution plan but politicians love the current pension racket and it IS a racket. Promise the big pension to get teachers union support but don't provide all the money necessary to fund it. Get the credit but they don't have to face paying for it. That's some other guys problem years from now.
that's true. In the original blogpost, I took the average teaching career. Most teachers at that time (not sure if it's still true or not) started teaching post college and as soon as they had a baby or two, they quit.
Also the TRS Pension system is guaranteed by the State of Illinois, but the pension amount is set by a district. Thus Evanston, for example, can declare that a teacher get $100K/year pension, while only funding $40/yr. Say Effingham declares a teacher gets $40k/year, while actually funding $40k/yr, they get a $60k/yr penalty for being fiscally responsible, because the State of Illinois funds the $60k/yr difference.
The giant sucking sound of Chicago/Cook and the collar counties sticking the rest of the state with their teacher's pension bills is a primary reason that Downstaters think they are getting ripped off.
they are getting ripped off!
As my DeWitt County friends tell me, things are going the wrong way there as well, with pension spiking becoming common place. So rather than being responsible downstate is pushing their pensions on the state as well.
Forgive my sarcasm, but I don't really think teacher pay has anything to do with education, does it?
I think more spending on education is non-correlated to better educational performance. BUT, when spending is increased, it doesn't go to teachers, it goes to bureaucracy/administration. Merit based pay will attract better quality teachers
Agree with much of the below. Good teachers are very valuable and probably do not get paid enough. The trouble is there is hardly any pay differential between good, average, and bad teachers.
I notice around our district that the guild system is much of the problem. Way too many teachers are hired based on their ability to navigate the system, rather than any ability or even credential. Thus you end up with multiple family members working in the same or similar school districts.
Also you get club coaches from village X teaching at village Y and club coaches from village Y teaching at village X. School Board Member at a Junior High District with a husband teaching at the High School District. Contractor teachers working 80 hours a week so a Unionized teacher can work 20 hours a week. Lot of bad behavior develops based on gaming the rules.
All a 'who you know' system which produces some really bad results on teaching (also on coaching).
Openthebooks.com publishes a database of public employees who earn over $100,000.00 per year in salary or retirement in Illinois. I have two college friends who retired as teachers in DuPage County and both earn north of $100,000.00 per year. I don't begrudge them their pensions but if the public realized how high some of these pensions are there might well be a revolt on real estate taxes that support these salaries and pensions....and no these people were not senior managers, just teachers.
I know Adam, he does a good job with Open the Books. FWIW, I am NOT against paying teachers, nor having a pension. I am against defined BENEFIT pensions and know that higher spending on education is not correlated at all with better outcomes for kids. 401(k) type pensions, and pay them more salary is a great compromise. That will attract a different type of person to teach. There are plenty of other things we can do as well.
Interestingly, the women's movement has adversely affected teachers. In the old days, women were discriminated against and had a brutal time in the work force. Many really talented women went into teaching. Students benefited. Those same very talented women are now in the workforce. This is a feature, not a bug.
Now in my mid 60's I recall a time when defined pensions made up about 40% of your retirement income, Social Security about 30% and the rest was up to your savings plan. Pensions were never designed to entirely replace your salary while working, although that is what we all like to have. This results in two problems that I see. First if you are going to pay these pension amounts, then fund them up front(taxpayers will not be happy). Second make the pensions payments only on the base salary, not on overtime payments. Ten to 15 years back the Fort Lauderdale Sun Sentinel newspaper did a good investigative report into South Florida government pensions. The poster child for this article was, if my memory is correct, a Davie Police Department Sergeant whose base salary was about $85,000.00 a year. In his last year he worked every overtime detail he could bumping his salary to the $160,000.00 range. He retired making about $125,000.00 a year somewhere in his 50's. Needless to say the newspaper could never get a comment from this guy. A lot of government employees game the system to max out their pensions. Close this loophole and I bet it would do a lot to contain future costs.
Getting a job teaching at a public school is like winning the lottery. I’ve been trying to explain the present value and opportunity costs of their pay for people and nobody gets it.
One other underrated benefit is the opportunity to change jobs (meaning switching from one district to another while still in the same state) and still have your years of total service still add up for pension purposes. Try that in ordinary civilian life!
It’s not the math
If a majority of kids learned
Reading writing and math
Graduated HS
Then teachers are worth every cent they get
But they are not